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December 7, 2020

I completely understand where you’re coming from but at the same time having empathy for someone’s journey and struggles doesn’t excuse bad/hurtful behavior either. I think a lot of people have issues with it because we’ve all been on the receiving end of that hurt. It explains it but it doesn’t necessarily excuse it. I do draw the line at hurtful comments though. I also think people are really tired of the “coming out” movies. I want my cheesy hallmark romcom lesbian couple :)

I agree that it doesn’t excuse it, but I don’t think the movie does, it completely places her in the wrong for it, we see Abby’s hurt explicitly, and Harper does acknowledge and apologize for it. It seems a pretty straightforward implementation of how these things ought to go?

I also don’t love coming out movies, but it was always clear that’s what it was going to be so I’m not sure why that’s held against it. And there’ve been some popular shows and movies in the last couple of years that didn’t even get to the happy ending part, let alone check off the other points of a cheesy Hallmark romcom. So I believe it’s more down to the individual project and execution than what it was or wasn’t.

I’ve been trying to answer these in order but I think I’ll just address these all now so people don’t think I’m ignoring them.

And another anon:

[HS] for me it’s not that she wasn’t out to her family that was the issue, it was throwing Abby into the situation headfirst and not telling her what was happening until it was too late for her to back out. she didn’t give Abby a choice in the matter at all, and that’s why I think a lot of people are looking at her and going “wow, she is NOT a good girlfriend.” (also ditching her at home to go out with her friends. I don’t even do that with platonic guests!)

Hmm, to me those are divided into several actions.

First, I did read it as giving her a choice. I had actually watched the trailer and thought it was full of some corny funny moments but later had literally said to a friend, I don’t know if I’ll like this, why did she even invite her to begin with and she doesn’t tell her till they’re at her house? How’re they going to explain that? And that was the impression we were all getting at that stage and people were still happily expectant.

But then the movie itself covered all those bases, she invited her because she was caught up in the moment, once she came to her senses she started regretting it and wanted to get out of it till Abby was like, I want to meet your family so she gave in, still clearly iffy about it, and like, nobody is saying Harper made the best choice at every moment, she very much did not, but not only was that the premise of the story, it was part of her character arc as well? She then did tell Abby and it was up to Abby to actually go or not. Yes, Harper made her case and it would have been hard for Abby to say no, but because she loves Harper and at the time, they both genuinely thought it’d work, Harper wasn’t like, I’m gonna make it horrible for her when I get there, why and how would that even work. People try to do things and then can’t, that’s not a moral failing. But truly, I think their relationship was such that Abby could have said no, I don’t want to do this, and Harper would have driven her back.

And as for the ditching and her not being a good gf, to me that’s a different action and born of the stress of the time. I don’t think you can separate that from everything else going on, we’re made up of everything that goes into us and as Abby herself pointed out, she’s a different person here, how she’s behaving here isn’t how she’s been for at least the last year with her.

And another anon:

Hey, so I get your point about Happiest Season. However, as a closeted muslim who hides everything ,this is my issue with it, let’s say for the sake of the movie we keep the fact that harper brings her girlfriend home even though she’s closeted. The flirting with the ex bf, hanging with friends and leaving abby alone was unnecessary. Bringing her gf home when she’s closeted is just not a good story line in general. I wish they had gone with a much more classic, cliche rom com idea ya know

Adding a cut for the answer to this last one because of length:

I think by the time we got to the ex and hanging out with friends and leaving Abby alone stage, it was to indicate Harper hitting her low. Like, she didn’t start the weekend like that, right, she started it off checking in on her routinely, in her basement room, at the restaurant, this was something that got progressively worse. I think maybe some people are reading her doing all that, the shitty gf stuff, as what she simply wanted to do, but to me, it was clearly part of her downward spiral. That’s what she was referring to in the suffocating convo, it was all pressing down on her. She had thought, when she suggested the plan, that she could do it, look after Abby while stay the same perfect daughter she was every holiday, but it just wasn’t possible, at least not for her. It was easier to be one or the other and she was wrongly choosing the perfect daughter role, and as a person (and a fictional character), it’s hard to compartmentalize everything perfectly. There are whole I Love Lucy episodes devoted specifically to show how the best laid plans fall apart. 😛

And so, choosing the perfect daughter role had to come to a head, it WAS needed for the sake of the movie because without it, what would be the clear stages of her journey, how would we see how it was affecting her as well? As I said above, it feels like some people think it’s just Harper perpetuating these actions, and yes, what she did to Abby is something she did to her, no excuse, but she’s also a victim of background? These are not power games she’s playing for the fun of it, in what world would she not just be happy to be out with her gf and have her parents continue to love her? Abby literally says Harper’s terrified of what the people there think, that’s all a part of her getting more wound up and tense. If we didn’t see the results of her being closeted, it’d remove much of the plot, but would go against the specific aim of how coming out was such a positive big brave step for her (which as you know, I don’t even necessarily agree with, in terms of general messaging, though, yes, it was what specifically Harper wanted and needed).

I’ve seen people talk about POV and framing and maybe that would have made the audience more sympathetic to Harper, but I guess I don’t see why it was necessary, and as I’ve mentioned, we have seen that with other characters and it didn’t really win them much sympathy. And then also, Harper needed to act that way to show why Abby would be fed up and leave, to then get to the last climactic stage of the movie. Otherwise it’d be like, well, the plan you agreed to is going fine, why not just wait till she comes out after?

And heh, I guess you can say it’s not a good storyline in general, though that seems pretty subjective, but it didn’t really trick us into thinking it was something else.

December 7, 2020

“The problem isn’t that the movie isn’t clear enough about the point or that people missed it, it’s that they think she brought this on herself.” wow you really hit the nail on the head. because it’s not like harper was closeted in every aspect of her life but this situation back home is a product of years of toxic expectations and homophobic comments from her parents that she is trying to break out of. but it’s fucking HARD to grapple with the idea of your parents choosing to stop loving you.

Yes, truly! I think there’s such a specific set of circumstances that goes into creating someone like Harper, someone who’s not just closeted but also extremely aware of the image her parents want to project and expect from her, to a degree that clearly hurts them all, AND that she wants to stay within that. Is it just love, is it a dependency, is it many things at once…

I’ve seen people who were simply like, her family sucks, she should just be rid of them. As you said, really confronting and coming to terms with the fact that their love for you isn’t unconditional, that this might be the thing that breaks your relationship, even as you still love them, it’s a really difficult thing and different for everyone. And obviously a lot of people do leave (or get kicked out), we have a whole found family concept specific to us because of that, and maybe that goes into it as well, as in, why is she trying so hard to stay? It’s almost a betrayal of sorts?

Taking that back to closeted people in general, I guess to some it feels a choice? Away from the community? I’ve seen people say Harper’s choosing access to power (???) by staying closeted, I’ve seen people call her straight, I’ve seen people completely accept that the Caldwells are abusive as a reason they don’t want them around Abby and not caring at all about the three daughters actually raised in that environment. And a lot more. While I don’t like it, at least I can better understand where a lot of the response is coming from.

December 3, 2020

(closeted anon back again)Just wanted to add that it’s not like Harper and Abby were magically ok in the end, I’m glad they did away with the proposal storyline in light of everything that happened. THAT would’ve felt totally unrealistic to me to have Abby propose on Christmas morning still. In the credits you can see that they got engaged in October the following year – a full ten months of (hopefully) couple’s therapy and family counselling for Harper.

Oh, sorry, I should have combined this with your previous ask, I wasn’t sure at first which closeted anon you were but the longer ask I just answered, I’m assuming.

And yes, Clea pointed that out too, that they got engaged quite a while later and there is the assumption Harper and the couple’s issues aren’t all cleared up immediately. But I kind of wish they’d saved the proposal for the sequel, heh, although of course it was a sweet epilogue.

December 3, 2020

Happiest Season has caused an existential crisis. Here I am happily simping for Kristen Stewart and all of the sudden it’s like “HERE COMES HOT, GAY AUBREY PLAZA IN A SUIT WITH A STEEL CHAIR.” Name another rom-com that has come close to causing such internal torment.

This made me laugh when I first saw it and again now because it was a nice break and, I think we can safely say, no, no other romcom has caused this much internal torment. 😛

While I usually like KStew in a fond “good for you” way, she was legit hot in this, and Riley was a revelation. I would absolutely be up for a sequel where Riley meets someone

December 3, 2020

On the topic of Happiest Season, I feel you about being disappointed at some of the reaction towards people in the closet. The discourse about how white the movie is barely happening, instead it’s lukewarm takes from people talking about Harper being a horrible emotionally abusive gaslighter and that Abby should run away with Riley. As a person who was closeted for a long time and still is to most of my family, who relates so much to Harper, although I wouldn’t have lied to my girlfriend to begin with, all of her choices over the course of those days make sense to me (not talking about the situation with Riley in high school). They’re not perfect choices, but it’s not like the movie isn’t clear about why she’s making them. The last third of the movie felt like the walls were closing around her, every choice makes sense in that context. Of course she didn’t just accept being outed five seconds after it happened in front of 20 people after decades in the closet, of course after a moment of reflection thinking about losing the love of her life she looked around and was like “what am I doing this for?” and changed her mind. And of course Abby was well within her rights to refuse to accept her apology and leave, but also of course she would have looked at this person she loved who for a year before those five days she had a ‘perfect’ relationship with, seen that their one hurdle was on its way to being cleared, heard the speech about Harper wanting sincerely to right her wrongs, and stayed. In what world is that a baffling choice? It’s not like she immediately proposed. I related to Harper more than I have to a character in a while, especially to the feeling of being ripped in two. It”s why I’ve made the choices I’ve made in the past to not get into serious relationships, precisely because this is my worst nightmare. Maybe it’s because I’m not white and I feel the tension between losing your family and losing your partner perhaps uniquely, when losing my family includes losing my culture and community (or at least that’s how I’ve felt). But you can happily ship Abby and Riley, and want Abby to have left for completely valid reasons about wanting two different things in a partner, without some of the vitriol being spewed at Harper in full view of sections of the community that are hurt every time they see it. I know I’m not brave enough. I don’t need reminding.

“I know I’m not brave enough. I don’t need reminding.“ Oooof, anon. I’m so sorry that you and others have been made to feel like this. :/

Unrelated, though, this whole ask is so well said, your points are so well made, I was honestly intimidated even trying to answer.

As you said, the movie explains why Harper’s behaving as she is, she’s ashamed and scared, why is every action read in the worst possible light, often exaggerated and even falsely?? Your explanation of how the ending went down, like, exactly, I cannot believe people are mad that she lied when outed in front of her family and a ton of people like that! That’s a literal nightmare come to life, surely some of us have had that one too?

And exactly, Abby’s in love with her, aside from the admittedly absolutely messed up lies about her sexuality that she absolutely should get help for, their life’s been perfect, with this barrier now taken away by Harper’s big step, why would she not try for it? Especially in a romcom! The way people have forgiven so much more in this genre but a closeted person they absolutely admit is abused separately from that, acts badly a few times and apologizes and is irredeemable.

The not white part’s actually funny to me, because I remember during the arguments over how horrible Jade (TRMD) and Rana (Corrie) were for being closeted or caring about their family, the fandom splits were often along…certain lines. And that’s such a good observation, how it’s a disconnect from culture and community too, then. We lose so much. Obviously the Caldwells are white af but it was amusing to me how many Asian wlw I saw were like, oh… D:

I’m picking random parts to respond to because honestly, your whole ask is perfect on its own. I will, though, agree that it’s absolutely fine to not personally think that Harper deserves that forgiveness or that Abby and Riley should have gotten together, but this really bad faith reading into her intentions just isn’t supported by the writing!

I’m sorry it took so long to respond, I hope you’re feeling better now.

December 3, 2020

i’m closeted around my family and seeing ppl say stuff like “if they won’t come out to their parents they don’t love you enough, extenuating circumstances only apply if they’re financially dependent”. it’s a really hard difficult situation to be in and it’s not abt the s/o so much as it is abt the person themselves. don’t we deserve the freedom to choose who and how we share ourselves?

All right, back to answering these! Sorry I took so long.

Honestly…your ask really made me rethink some things I’d always taken for granted. First I’ll just preface this by saying I’m mostly thinking out loud and offering questions, I’m not insisting on or condemning or judging anything, and certainly not dismissing what people’ve lived through or their choices.

So my original answer to this was going to be to loosely agree with your points and then use them to pivot to John’s speech about everyone’s coming out journey not being the same, because as you both said, it’s not about the partner at all, and was going stay focused on the movie but you’ve really made me consider what coming out and closeted even really mean, on a much larger scale. Because Harper has come out where she lives, right. She’s not hiding herself there, she’s affectionate and loving and by Abby’s own account, a totally different person than with family. So we don’t just mean she has to come out, we mean she has to come out to her family. Why? Like truly, your last point, how come this doesn’t get the same treatment about consent and privacy as everything else? And let’s not say, oh, of course it’s up to you when you come out, nobody should out you, because the message from all directions, within the community and without, is very much that you eventually do have to at some point.

Even in this movie, John’s lovely speech STILL does imply that this is an end destination someone has to be “ready” to finally get to. If they don’t, that’s a failure to get there. And this is of course oversimplifying the fact that some people may come out to a sibling or one parent first or only them ever. But like, really, as you said, why is it seen this way, to prove people aren’t ashamed of themselves, of their gayness, of their partner, that literally, if they love their partner, they have to risk losing their family? Because what else is that saying? Knowing John’s own story, knowing that Harper had just admitted she was scared of telling and losing them, what did Abby’s I want someone who’s ready then mean, if not that? Someone ready to tell their parents and risk losing them, no? And this isn’t at all bashing Abby or even the movie, it’s just this overriding expectation. She’s of course valid in wanting to date someone out (though, again, in the ways that most affected Abby’s life, Harper was out–leaving out this trip from hell that it would also be completely understandable to want to escape from) but in the context of that moment, what else did it mean? And this isn’t the only media that does it, so many stories out there do.

I remember we briefly discussed this because of April from TBH, and even there, a character who is financially dependent on her family and with a conservative, violent father got some flak for not coming out. GLOW did this recently too, and Little Voice, where the queer person who wasn’t fully out is hiding their True Selves and ashamed and how no out person will want any part of that. And then the person comes out and hardly ever is the reaction as bad as it would most likely have been in real life, including for Harper. Why is this narrative so pervasive? “Just stop being a coward and it’ll all turn out okay.”

I mean. I do get WHY. It is an incredibly important step. For a lot of people, their family are the first and closest people they feel like they have to and want to tell, especially if they’re young and/or live at home. And if we don’t tell them, how do we push things forward for the community, and we’ve fought for so long to live openly like this, gay pride is what it is for a reason, and what good is being loved without being known and ultimately, it is traumatizing being closeted. People want to share this and have others share with them and keeping this huge secret that you know is unjustly forced upon you does take a mental toll. Agreed, agreed, agreed. But then why make it even worse by adding shame and guilt and pressure on top of it, you know? Surely there’s a middle ground. I get that there needs to be a strong motivation sometimes, otherwise people might stay in a kind of closeted “comfort zone” and end up missing out on surprisingly positive experiences, but maybe people shouldn’t be pushed either way. Some of us who think we might not ever may still yet decide we want to, but I have confidence that those people coming out in their own time would do so even without this stigma attached to the closet. Nobody stays in there because we want to. We all feel that same need to tell our families, all those reasons above apply to us, too. Circumstances are just different sometimes.

And the funny part is, I do think Harper is a person who should come out to her parents, because it matters that much to her. She’d never be happy without telling them. It goes without saying she shouldn’t have lied or brought Abby within a hundred miles of them before it was all sorted. But, say, a different person in her situation, one who told Abby she had no plans to come out to her parents anytime soon and either went home alone or not at all…is that so bad?

November 28, 2020

Wow I am baffled by people’s reaction to happiest season. I understand your sadness, this discourse is so hard to read :( Was not expecting this. I was talking to a friend the other day about why they decided on another in the closet/coming out story. But based on people’s reaction I stand corrected, those are obviously still needed….

Yeah… You know, the irony was, I wasn’t even that excited about it, when it was announced, I literally posted this: https://booasaur.tumblr.com/post/180630988565/me-a-new-ff-movie-with-recognizable-stars-and-a

And then I ended up thinking it was great! What an idiot I was. I wish now I hadn’t watched at all and just stayed away from it completely.

I don’t know if it’s needed, it’s certainly not effective. And people can say, all they want, how it’s because of Harper’s actions, because apparently they’re somehow decontextualized from her being closeted?, because in this situation THEY would never lie or briefly be a dick (and apologize), they would never put someone in this situation that apparently they had no choice to refuse, that basically, it’s Harper they find unsympathetic, not closeted people in general.

Even though we can see the comments they make that kind of DO apply to closeted people in general! Oh, she’s cowardly but in a different way from us? She doesn’t deserve love but in a different way from us? That out people are better in general, more confident, mature, but only when we’re talking about fictional characters?

But you know what the rub of it is. I’ve been really deep in some fandoms with closeted characters, who were as sympathetic as they claim Harper should have been. Jade from The Rich Man’s Daughter, who attempted suicide and who was slapped around by her family? Rana from Corrie who was shaking and sobbing and humiliated when her parents found out? I saw how they were treated. I saw how people treated Sophie from Batwoman. I don’t want to hear about this perfect closeted person who behaves like an angel, as if they themselves aren’t the biggest victim of the homophobia around them.